You: Consciousness is the faculty of sentient awareness.
That is the definition of the word consciousness.
So...
Not a thing.
Not a substance.
Just a word.
Me: i just wrote that consciousness is similar to a boundless substance..so you’re opposing my view. which is fine. i dont claim to be a know-it-all.. Also whether consciousness is a thing or not is open for debate..what makes a thing a thing...does it have to be solid like a rock or can it be subtle like a thought...one of the most well respected totally enlightened beings (ramana maharshi) called the Self a thing..did he make a mistake? (btw, if the SElf is a thing and everything is the Self that makes everything a thing... Also your making it seem like consciousness is something less then awareness. i think they are both equal in the Self description..., The Self/Atman/Iprinciple is consciousness, awareness, energy, light, eternal, colorlesss...the list goes on...
You: We humans came up with this word, to describe the fact that we are aware of our existence and our surroundings.
Me: we humans came up with this word? Thats funny...how do you know that some great god-realized being in the higher realms didn’t connect with it first and later send the word to some human being open to his transmission? lol
You: in certain spiritual teachings this true definition, is ignored...
...because it is believed that consciousness is the substratum to all that is - and - Who We Are.
This conclusion is arrived at by deduction, like this...
Everything we perceive is ultimately impermanent - except awareness.
And consciousness makes this possible.
Therefore, consciousness must be the true reality.
The problem with this idea, is that without the human evolved brain and our sense organs, we wouldn't have consciousness in the first place, to even be able to think about such things.
Me: well, you dont need a brain or senses to examine the Self...that Self is beyond the brain and its senses. i think realizing that you are fundamentally consciousness and awareness is arrived at by coming into *total enlightenment*.
your not making sense to me. From my point of view, you dont have to have a body and a brain to be conscious of the astral world for example..seeing takes place without eyeballs in other dimensions..after you die to the physical plane..
You: To know anything, we need the capabilities, the capacities, of thought, sensation, imagination, intuition, memory...
In summary - our Mind.
But there is also another ingredient essential for life to be as we know it...
CONTENT
Without content, there will be nothing for consciousness to arise in or mind to know.
Me; if you think that *consciousness* isnt fundamentally You....Self/ATman/I principle.. then you would say that...from my point of view content comes and goes on that fundamental screen of consciousness/awareness..(btw, consciousness and awareness are always together...) whether there is content or no content...
You: We humans are aspects of that content.
We are essentially vessels in which consciousness arises.
And we know all we know through our mind.
In the first few years of life we act instinctively like all other sentient creatures, and we focus only on whatever sensory content our attention is drawn to.
Gradually through experience and learning, we gain knowledge and understanding, and our consciousness expands to accommodate all the new information - new content.
Which then resides as energy in our mind and our body, either in our awareness or below the surface in the unconscious, flowing freely between both states.
The more compelling the content, the greater its energetic presence in our mind.
This could be likened to clouds forming in the sky, some more dense than others.
When we begin to think about our life and who we are, the most influential inner influences are the - energetic clouds - that have so far formed.
And these are those related to our experiences to that point in our lives, mostly based on our early primordial focus on what has made us feel safe, happy, or fearful.
This is the foundation for the ego-identified condition, dominated by self interest, self protection and the belief that we are our vulnerable and needy body.
It is very common that this limited focus remains predominant for a whole lifetime.
Me: from here on down to the end of your essay, i like it..especailly your last two sentences...the upper part of your essay has some *truth* but i find theres a few things i dont agree with...
You: But even so, there is always a subtle sense of something missing, always a little beyond our reach.
This could be likened to knowing there must be a light of some kind beyond those clouds.
And the truth is, we can never know enduring peace and contentment, until we have discovered more about that light.
And this is the motivating energy behind all spiritual seeking.
When we experience the first real glimpse, it is realised that there is a deeper dimension to our existence, which is a revelation, that's commonly called... Spiritual Awakening.
It is the point at which the clouds begin to burn off.
As the process of awakening progresses, the clouds of self interest, thin out.
And feelings of hope and happiness start to come.
Life takes on new meaning and things begin to work out in ways we did not think possible.
Our response to life and the world becomes more open.
Despite all of this happening, however, the denser clouds in the mind are slow to dissipate...periodically dimming or obscuring the light.
As time passes and the sky does gradually become clearer.
We gain a deeper connection, and our consciousness embraces this wider perspective.
Gradually, it is sensed that consciousness, and the energies of our mind may not even be limited to the confines of the time bound-body - that there is an interconnectedness with all that is known and unknown.
you: It may even be perceived, that our consciousness is one with an all pervading awareness, that emanates from somewhere beyond any possible understanding.
Like a white light, refracted into an infinite variety of colours in our manifest existence.
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You: Consciousness is the faculty of sentient awareness.That is the definition of the word consciousness.So...Not a thing.Not a substance.Just a word.
Me: i just wrote that consciousness is similar to a boundless substance..so you’re opposing my view. which is fine. i dont claim to be a know-it-all.. Also whether consciousness is a thing or not is open for debate..what makes a thing a thing...does it have to be solid like a rock or can it be subtle like a thought...one of the most well respected totally enlightened beings (ramana maharshi) called the Self a thing..did he make a mistake? (btw, if the SElf is a thing and everything is the Self that makes everything a thing... Also your making it seem like consciousness is something less then awareness. i think they are both equal in the Self description..., The Self/Atman/Iprinciple is consciousness, awareness, energy, light, eternal, colorlesss...the list goes on...
you.. All I did in my introduction was to point out that there is an actual meaning ascribed to the word 'consciousness', and it is not the meaning used in 'spiritual' circles.
me: i see that you got your *meaning of consciousness* from ann rand. . and reading into her more shes saying that if there's nothing to be conscious of then there's no consiousness...i dont agree with her...i think consciousness is an eternal adjective to describe the Self/Atman/I principle..not only that, i think that there is never not anything to be conscious of...there is always something to be conscious of wherther its a rock or the void or the SElf/Atman/I principle...
you:This strange misuse of a word isn't even questioned now because it has become so common. I suspect that Ramana and others used words that were translated slightly incorrectly and this is where the misunderstanding began. My sense is that the unmanifest has qualities - but these cannot be imagined, and the only way to point to them in a way that the human mind can even begin to comprehend was/is to use words that are interpreted (or misinterpreted) - like 'thing'. I do not intend to suggest that awareness is less or more than consciousness. All is All, and there is no 'more or less', in All. In my experience, however, as I look inward, I cannot find consciousness, but I can know the awareness which allows this. What is discerned is that consciousness is an unknowable, magical, mystical 'faculty' that enables awareness. In addition, my sense is that consciousness is a manifest expression of, and emanating from; That, the Absolute creative Source. ..........................................................
me: so, you look inside and dont find consciousness. but you can find awareness..ya...i dont know how to explain it. the Self/Atman/I principle is both consciousness and awarenss and if you can see yourself as Self/Atman/I principle (beyond the body/mind space/time complex, beyond waking dreaming and deep sleep states, prior to everything and nothing) you're then seeing yourself as consciousness and awareness..along with the light that you are and the divine love that you are...they say that if you know Self/Atman/I principle then theres nothing that you cant know..everything is knowable! (i'm not saying i know everything, i'm just saying its possible, ya, i know you dont *believe* stuff...lol)
You: We humans came up with this word, to describe the fact that we are aware of our existence and our surroundings.
Me: we humans came up with this word? Thats funny...how do you know that some great god-realized being in the higher realms didn’t connect with it first and later send the word to some human being open to his transmission? lol
Reply: I don't KNOW much at all, and don't BELIEVE anything! ..........................................................
me: i never had problems believing in some things. but if i believed in something, which is a start, i would research that belief till either i decided it was true or not...if it was that important...also, when i read the words of beings i think are realized and they all say the same thing, there must be something (truth)to what they are saying...
You: in certain spiritual teachings this true definition, is ignored......because it is believed that consciousness is the substratum to all that is - and - Who We Are. This conclusion is arrived at by deduction, like this...Everything we perceive is ultimately impermanent - except awareness. And consciousness makes this possible. Therefore, consciousness must be the true reality. The problem with this idea, is that without the human evolved brain and our sense organs, we wouldn't have consciousness in the first place, to even be able to think about such things.
Me: well, you dont need a brain or senses to examine the Self...that Self is beyond the brain and its senses. i think realizing that you are fundamentally consciousness and awareness is arrived at by coming into total enlightenment. your not making sense to me. From my point of view, you dont have to have a body and a brain to be conscious of the astral world for example..seeing takes place without eyeballs in other dimensions..after you die to the physical plane..
Reply: We would not be having this lovely conversation in this manifest existence without brain and sense organs and the consciousness to know them. The teaching that I dispute and the misuse/misunderstanding of words, also would not be here. Anything that comes through the body out of a mouth, using a conditioned mind, using logic and awareness to deduce things that the mind cannot possibly know, is mere speculation, in my opinion. But the mind so easily jumps into a state of BELIEF that it KNOWS. ..........................................................
me: what are you disputing? that consciousness is not the substratum and consciousness is not *who and what we are*?
You: To know anything, we need the capabilities, the capacities, of thought, sensation, imagination, intuition, memory...In summary - our Mind. But there is also another ingredient essential for life to be as we know it...CONTENT
Without content, there will be nothing for consciousness to arise in or mind to know.
Me; if you think that consciousness isnt fundamentally You....Self/ATman/I principle.. then you would say that...from my point of view content comes and goes on that fundamental screen of consciousness/awareness..(btw, consciousness and awareness are always together...) whether there is content or no content...
Reply: My inner experience is that consciousness is the faculty that enables awareness. My sense is that when the body drops the mind/consciousness/awareness continues on its journey. Consciousness is an aspect/quality of All. Content, yes comes and goes, and some of it is in our awareness some of the time. Sometimes there is no content in awareness and this makes room for a reflected experience of That, the Absolute creative Source. ..........................................................
me: ok..well from my point of view,,awareness does its thing while at the same time consciousness does its thing...they are never separate..consciousness supports awareness and awareness supports consciousness..whether there is content or no content... it's like pouring equal amounts red water(consciousness) and blue water(awareness) into a container and you get purple water.(the Self/Atman/I principle)..its still all water..(the Self/Atman/I principle)
i'm wondering....you seem to think that That is the Absolute Creative Source. can you say that the Absoltue Creative Source is the same as the Self/Atman/I principle that is you? Absoltue Creative Source, can you describe it?
Have responded via Messenger - hope you receive it?