after explaining about my point of view about self-realization and liberation robert saltzman responded with this...i added my thoughts.
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robert: Chitra, “self-realization” is Hindu religious language. Other religions and philosophies have other ideas about human life that do not include so-called self-realization.
chitra: ok..thats' sort of obvious.
robert: In Buddhism, for example (there are many schools of both Buddhism and Hinduism, so I am generalizing here), the “self” is not “realized,” but seen through as empty of actual existence
chitra: anyone whos studied either buddhism or hinduism knows that the small self is seen through as empty of actual existence. some people get that intellectually some people have a direct experience of that.. but i like to add that knowing what you are not isnt enought for the goal i point to. there is a larger Self ..it is actually described in scriptures as limitless and boundless..(but you probalby think scriptures are bogus)
robert: In that view, what you are calling “liberation” results when the feeling of being “myself” is seen to rest upon no fixed foundation and to have no essential character, but to arise from moment to moment by the instantaneous mixing of various elements: a physical body, thoughts, and feelings, awareness of the body, awareness of thoughts and feelings, etc.
chitra: . i'm not clear about what you are talking about..do you know what my view of liberation is..i don't think so..
robert: in Christianity and Islam, the self is an immortal soul that is not “realized,” but “saved” from damnation by properly following the rules set down by “God.”
chitra: i have no idea about christianity or islam so dont bother
robert: In philosophical naturalism, consciousness of being a “self” arises in humans as the result of evolution by natural selection.
chitra: i know the story about evolution
robert: if you believe in the Hindu version, Chitra, OK. You have every right to believe what you believe, and even to defend your beliefs and argue for them. If you want to spend your life and time pursuing “self-realization”—
chitra: STOP RIGHT THERE...i am not in any way shape or form pursuing self-realization, god-realization or liberation...
robert: if that is your approach to managing the pain and suffering of human primate life--fine by me. Just ignore everything I say because it will not apply to the “path” you are following.
to the readers..at this point robert asks me to ignore everything he says but i think i'll keep going regardless, his words of wisdom arent wise to me at all..
chitra: thats my approach to understanding reality. if pain and suffering stops that's great..
robert: in my view, we human animals can know things only through the bodies and minds with which we were born: the senses like eyesight and hearing that show us a "movie" of a “world,” the feelings, thoughts, and emotions generated by our brains, etc. As I see it, that biological equipment, being a fragment of "reality," not the observer of it, is not suited to understanding reality in its entirety. We may feel the desire to understand reality--in the sense of all and everything--but we lack the abilities and perspective we would need to do so.
chitra: i have to say that you limit yourself to the gross world and thats fine..but you're what? reasoning..logic..maybe its even a lack of curiosoty ...keeps you with a very limited view...or just maybe you've just entered the human kingdom and are just enthrolled with the gross plane..you have no motive to dig deeper..to *know yourself* as anything other then human..
robert: As a psychologist, it is clear to me that most of the forces that drive our thoughts, feelings, and emotions are hidden from view. To be clear on this point, someone can have a massive “spiritual experience” with visions of all kinds but even so, I say, a large part of what constitutes “myself” will remain inaccessible.
chitra: now you've got me really confused. earlier in the conversation you were writing about how that self will be seen through and now you're talking about a large part of your small self will remain inaccessible..anyway..that small self your talking about that you think you know and all of the mystery parts of that small self you cant know ..i'm not intersted in it..whether its your small self or mine.
robert: Just as most of an iceberg, being underwater, is hidden from view, most of the “self,” which is not a thing, not an entity, but a collection of thoughts, feelings, emotions, drives, fears, and desires, will remain hidden and never even be perceived, much less known and understood.
chitra; ya..i get that you think that way...
robert: Part of what I call “awake” includes understanding human ignorance of final matters, understanding that what I call “myself” is a mystery to me and shall thus remain.
chitra: well...i dont call that awake at all...if you cant see through to reality , to the bigger Self..you've got avidya..(ignorance blocking or veiling) your view..
robert: Oneself arises from moment to moment, never the same twice, and one can neither make it happen or stop it from happening. It’s like lava issuing from a volcano. It just keeps flowing, regardless of what “Robert” likes or does not like, does or fails to do.
chitra: ok..i agree with that..thats a valid point of view but that just that smaller self that is arising ..the larger Self is always the same it doesnt arise.
robert: From that point of view, I consider many of the Hindu “saints” to have been not “self-realized,” but self-hypnotized and deluded, just as religious people of all stripes are deluded by their idealistic beliefs.
chitra: some people will probably agree with you and some wont. i personally think that people who agree with you wont move much further into reality and you're just giving them an excuse to give up..i am sure that there are real saints and sages who have realized and i prefer to focus on them..
robert: Someone who imagines all those Hindu saints to have penetrated the final mystery of being so that they know precisely who and what “myself” is in no position to understand what I am pointing out.
chitra: if a realized being reads this he/she will know exactly where your at..probably because at some point on their journey they were in your shoes..not believing that god-realization is a *thing*.and all the other ideas that you understand.
robert: To believe that so-called “self-realization” is a kind of fixed destination at which some—but very few—special spiritual geniuses arrive is an absolute impediment to understanding the human condition as I see it.
chitra: god-realization (lets take it to the end) is a fixed destination, i have no idea how many beings get it and i dont consider all those being who do get it spiritual geniuses. understanding the human condition...they've been there and done that..are they psychologist..probably not..
robert: That’s why it is suggested that if one meets the Buddha in the road, one should kill him.
chitra: i dont understand why one should kill the buddha in the road
robert: I do not expect you to understand what I have just written. You will find a way to misunderstand it, for if you understood it, you would see the "path" of "self-realization" as I do: a parade of ants imagining that they understand a picnic (or if they can’t grok it on their own steam, some special, self-realized ant will explain it to them).
chitra: hahaha..thats too funny...thats probably the funniest thing you've ever said..i do understand what you've written. you've explained to yourself thats its ok to not know who and what you are...you dont beleive in self-realization or god-realization or anything much past you own nose. if you're on the top of the iceberg dont bother to figure out whats below the surface..
robert: I wish you well.
chitra:
you have alot of people following and holding onto your every word..thats a tricky position to be in..i dont envy you..and i wish you well.too..to the reader..i have a bit of brain fog and did the best i could..
namaste...means i the Immortal Self that i am bows to the Immortal Self that you are.
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